RE: Elec Fan Update
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/16/2007 8:52:21 PM
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Kensai
Posts: 1669
Joined: 12/30/2003
From: United States
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Kinda sad to see the 14 inchers not do better than the 12's. But I guess this may be intentionally as the RPM's are lower, they may have done this to reduce noise levels? Some of the oversized dual fans are tilted in a diagnol from upper corner to lower corner to maximize fan size space and fit.
Here's link for a company that builds efans for dodge trucks.
http://www.drivetrain.com/flexfan/dodgemonster.html
I think these are actually flex-a-lite monster fans:
http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/monster-electric.html
Only thing that prevents me to going to a Efan is that I may have to lose my shroud and my shroud has the coolant, and windshield coolant containers on them. Don't want to lose them and it will not give the stock OEM look.
< Message edited by Kensai -- 8/16/2007 9:17:59 PM >
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Black 2000 Durango 5.9 R/T
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/16/2007 10:10:34 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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Ken, the reason the 14's run at a lowwer RMP pulling 50 CFM less is amp draw. It takes more amps to pull the same CFM because of the larger load to the motor from the larger fan blades on the 14 that are metal as where the blade on the 12 is composite, and also the area the 14 pulls in is larger.
This is what I'm pondering, more area @ 50CFM less per fan or less area @ 50 CFM more per fan.
The amp draw you must admit is awsome only 7.5amps for 3000CFM for the 12"er and only 9.5 amps for 2950 CFM on the 14"er. The motors are pancake style stainless roller bearrings (kick butt constuction).
BTW the mark fan I read on a ford site draws about 30 amps nominal, a lot more than the ones I found, 2 12's draw a mere 15 amps to pull 6000 CFM and 2 14's 19 amps at 5900 CFM.
Forget that $590 setup making shroud/ coolant/ wiperfluid resivour issues, buy the two fans around 200 bucks, the control circuit parts $100-$250 more depending on how ya wire 'em, go junkyard hunting for shroud/ mounting parts or get a 4'X7' sheet of 20-22 gauge stainless or aluminum, some matching 1/8"thickX 1" wide flat stock and stainless nuts,bolts, and washers and fab the install to retain the stock upper shroud. Sheet metal sheers, handtools, and a drill will do the job, but use of a sheet metal brake and plasma cutter will make it easier and quicker.
Damn I should fab one up, patten it and sell it for $250 a pop.
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'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/17/2007 5:04:42 AM
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cesspool
Posts: 199
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lil Red Mopar
Damn I should fab one up, patten it and sell it for $250 a pop.
I thought about that if I can get them to work!
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/17/2007 5:28:16 PM
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Kensai
Posts: 1669
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Welp, after doing alot of research, I am almost convinced that this MarkVIII fan will not be enough to cool a 5.9 Durango running with A/C in areas that can approach 100 degrees outside. Also, if you do moderate towing, and/or combine it with the a/c and outside temps, it'll run hot. A couple users that tried this already stated the obvious results with a single or dual fan setup. Both fan setups may not had enough CFM's to keep the big engine cool. I will have to agree with Lil Mopar and go with a minimum of 6000 CFM's to keep the 5.9 cool whether it be a big single fan or dual fans. The Mark fan may work for a 4.7 or 5.2 and even then, as long as you don't really tow anything and living in very hot climates like Texas, it should be enough.
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Black 2000 Durango 5.9 R/T
Fastman 52mm ThrottleBody
Fastman custom built Tranny
Castrol Full Syntec
OEM K&N Air filter
Monroe Reflexes
BFG Comp T/A''s
Champion IR Truck Plugs
180 Stat
Hypertech III (87 oct)
Custom Made Ram Air Intake
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/17/2007 5:53:04 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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Cess it's too bad you don't live near me, I got a fridge in the garage filled with 2 cases of New Castle, a case of Heinekin, and the door is loadded with Bud Light,Miller, Coors and what ever else the tourists tip my mother-in-law. My habit is suck down a case all at once and not have another drop for 6 months.
Anyways I'd invite ya over with e-fans in hand and at the end you'd be up and runn'n no switches to have to remember about, and I'd make shure you understood how it all works, cause once ya get it it's easy nothin' to it but ta do it.
Not in an effort to confuse you, but when I was in electrical class the instructor always said to think of it as one wire, one path from start to finish. If you break down a circiut, you must have 5 things to make a complete circuit, A supply of power, conductor (wire) to move the power, a switch, a load (motor,light or other power consuming device), and a complete path to ground for the electricity to flow through, anything else is not a complete circuit and will not work.
Try looking at Ken's diagram and follow the circuit from to power supply through the switches, loads and finally to ground, and break it down, compound circuits can be broken down this way also, follow the low speed fan circuit from supply to ground, then the high speed circuit, follow it with your finger like a road map. Get the parts out and lay them out in sequence on the floor/table or what ever.Once you have them sitting there, identify all the + (power in for dc) and - ( power out dc) terminals and determine how they need to be hooked up from 1 line from power to first part in line up all the way to the end of the circuit being the wire to ground.
Relays, don't let them bother you they are our freind as they are the "little man under the hood" swicthing loads on and off for us automaticly in a control circuit.
A relay is nothing more than a switch that is contolled by a coil. A basic on/off relay has 4 leads, 2 for power in and out on the swicthing side and 2 for the coil, it will be marked NO (normally open, open meaning without power to the coil it is in the off position or off when at rest) NC (normally closed or on at rest with no power to coil).
The coil when energized creates a magnetic field that moves an iron rod that is connected to contactors in the relay, in the NO relay this rod would be pulled into the coil, when energized, making the contactors connect and pass power to the load and in the NC relay the rod would be pulled into energized coil breaking the connection to the contactors by pulling them apart and cutting power to the load shutting the load off.
Damn I do wish you lived near by I'd have ya come over, we could wire it up real quick, suck down a few beers and compare notes on our D's.
Man good luck Cess, I feel like my hands are tied, we could get 'er done in at worst an hour or two counting unforeseen cans of worms.Well I hope at least I helped in trying to give you a different perspective in which to look at the wiring end of it from.
< Message edited by Lil Red Mopar -- 8/17/2007 6:41:54 PM >
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'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/17/2007 6:38:27 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kensai
Welp, after doing alot of research, I am almost convinced that this MarkVIII fan will not be enough to cool a 5.9 Durango running with A/C in areas that can approach 100 degrees outside. Also, if you do moderate towing, and/or combine it with the a/c and outside temps, it'll run hot. A couple users that tried this already stated the obvious results with a single or dual fan setup. Both fan setups may not had enough CFM's to keep the big engine cool. I will have to agree with Lil Mopar and go with a minimum of 6000 CFM's to keep the 5.9 cool whether it be a big single fan or dual fans. The Mark fan may work for a 4.7 or 5.2 and even then, as long as you don't really tow anything and living in very hot climates like Texas, it should be enough.
Ken, even with the 6000CFM setup, I think a trans cooler should also be installed seperate as in not running tranny oil through the radiator.
With the amp savings over the mark fan @ about 30 amps, the ones I scoped out pull 15amps twin 12"ers runnig at the same time and 19 amps twin 14"ers running together, this will leave some amps handy to run a 10" Perma -Cool pn 19010 @ 2100 RPM @ 1250 CFM @ 5.7 amp draw through a 11"X11"X1.5" B&M supercooler on t-stat control and this cooler also has a flow check that lets cool oil bypass the core and return to the trans as added insurance not to starve the tourque converter of oil.
The fit aint perfect as the cooler's core is only 11"X9" and the fan covers 13"X10.5"X2.5"thick, but the cooler's overall area is 11"X11" and the fan's blade is 10" in diameter so it should'nt be hard to center up the fanblade over the cooler and persuede maximum airflow through the core.
I know why not a smaller fan , well the other ones draw more amps and give less CFM, so I'm stuck on these efficiant fans for that reason. I can run three of them at an amp cost of a hair under 30amps, get the trans off the radiator and cool it's oil more efficiantly adding life expectancey to it, ditch the clutch fan adding hp&mpg and still have enough amps left to ditch the water pump for an in-line 55gpm electric unit adding yet more ponnies and mpg. I'm gonna give my 360 a present it has been missing since the late 1960's, I'm gonna give it back it's balls.
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/20/2007 10:44:49 AM
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cesspool
Posts: 199
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Ken, can you point me in the direction of where you read about the fan not being enough. I'd like to read there responses.
I guess at this point it would be futile to try with the mark fan again. I guess My best bet at this point is the dual 12's?
Lil red, what exactly are you talking about with the tranny cooler?
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/20/2007 11:55:38 AM
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Kensai
Posts: 1669
Joined: 12/30/2003
From: United States
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Cess,
The statement I made is my own opinion based on the research I did searching the net looking for a Efan for a Durango or even a Dodge RAM. Only Flexalites makes Efans designed for Dodge RAMS but they do not have a listing for Dakota/Durangos. But since the RAM shares the same engine(base on 5.9), maybe the RAM's may have bigger radiators, Flexalite makes DUAL efans designed for RAMS, especially for the 5.9 cummins. If they claim that 5500-6000 CFM's is enough to keep a hard working cummins cool, it should be enough for a gasoline 5.9 engine as well. With minimum CFM ratings of 5500-6000 CFM's. So I am making my judgement call that this should also apply for Dakotas and Durangos with 5.9 engines as well but may have to find a smaller dual Efan that pulls the same amount of CFM's that will fit on Dak's/Dur's the smaller radiator. Hence where Lil Mopar recommends the dual 12's that can pull 6000 CFM's with relatively low amperage draw.
With this setup, you're garuanteed the D will stay cool no matter what part of the U.S. you live in and using the A/C and towing.
Otherwise, I can see the Mark fan work for those D owners that;
Lives in the northern U.S. regions where the daily summer temps aren't as hot. 90+
Do very light or no towing.
Not use A/C much.
D's with 4.7/5.2 engines.
_____________________________
Black 2000 Durango 5.9 R/T
Fastman 52mm ThrottleBody
Fastman custom built Tranny
Castrol Full Syntec
OEM K&N Air filter
Monroe Reflexes
BFG Comp T/A''s
Champion IR Truck Plugs
180 Stat
Hypertech III (87 oct)
Custom Made Ram Air Intake
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/20/2007 5:41:00 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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Cess the tranny cooler thing I was yapp'n bout goes like this.
B&M makes a tranny cooler that's total dimensions (counting the "side tubs") of 11"X11"X1.5"thick.
This is the only cooler in my opinion worth slapp'n and e-fan on because it's the only one big enough to but a 10"er on. Also it has a flowcheck valve that let's already cool trany oil bypass the cooler and return to the trans, this is insurance that the trans oil will never get too cold and thicken up taking up less space and starving the torque converter F'n up the trans.
Reason for adding the trans cooler: to remove the tranny lines from the radiator relieving the radiator of the added heat load of the trans oil. I in a stock D that does'nt have tow pkg upgrades there's no tranny cooler the radiator is responsible for removing heat from both the trans and the engine.By having the trans cooled by means of a seperate cooler, if done right, should benifit the powertrain by having a trans that runs a little cooler the trans should last longer, by having the radiator only cool the engine it should do a better job without all the extra heat load of the tranny oil circulating through it.
The fan circuit for the tranny cooler would be controlled with the same type of temp probe setup used for the radiator fans. I'm buy'n 3 of 'em, one for the trans cooler and the other two for the twin radiator fans. An adjustable temp fan control set to come on at 180 and turn off at 160, I found when looking for a trans temp gauge, that the trans oil must be kept in the same temp range as the numbers on a coolant temp gauge start at about 120 and go to about 260 and the trans temp gauge numbers are the same so I figure same temps means I can use same fan control units.
The fitting issue: the B&M cooler's core area is 11"X9" and the 10 fan needs 10.5"X13" to mount. The fanblade itself is 10" diameter, so if I mount it right, the fanblade will go 0.5" past the right and left side of the core but will not see open air because this 0.5" over lap on each side will be blocked by the side-tubs of the unit. With this said, fabricating the nessisarry mounting system for this e-fan cooled trans cooler will require seriuos thought, preperation and maybe even some trade skills such as welding and sheet metal fabrication skills.
Why a 10" fan and specifically why the one I recommended by part # and make: The 10" fan I mentioned a post ago can pull 1250 CFM air flow and only draws 5.7 amps, no other 10" fan I've seen even pulls 1250 CFM and the smaller ones like a 6" pull as little as 350 CFM and suck as much as 25 amps from the electrical system, so this is why my fan and trans cooler shopping list look this way.
My build will have 2 12"ers on radiator pulling 6000CFM @ 15amps and the trans cooler a 10"er pulling 1250 CFM @ 5.7 amps. System net CFM = 7250 System net amp draw 20.7 amps. I'm pretty sure that my stock e-fan pulls 30amps and it sucks compared to what I'm about to do, because if I'm right the new set up will draw less amps than the stock secondary fan so I won't have to upgrade my alternator and I should have enough capacity to run an inline electric water pump that pumps 55GPM so I can ditch the stock water pump and add more hp and cooling capacity, the stock water pump only pumps in the neighborhood of 20GPM.
It may sound overkill but tranny's and engines aint cheap and overkill is this engineer's middle name , when I fix something I intend on making it last a while.
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/21/2007 8:44:12 AM
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cesspool
Posts: 199
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I have the tow package on my 99. So I do have a seperate Tranny cooler, right? on front of the radiator?
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/21/2007 11:50:10 AM
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zukgod1
Posts: 23
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Very good info!!
I have not yet done the E Fan conversion for the reasons mentioned above. It gets 100+ here often and pulling a 22' camp trailer in that heat would just overpower a E Fan set up such as the Mark 5 set up.
Reading lil red mopars posts confirms that in my mind. I am a HVAC/ tin banger guy, I dont think bending up a shroud out of metal would be to tough. It could be made as thin as possible to keep it close to the rad then we could cut the holes for the fans where we wanted and mount the fans over those holes....
I'll look into this in the future but I'll guess even a sheet metal shop could make something if givin the specs for less than $100.00. we would prob need to figure out the mounting tabs (they could be bent to be in the correct place but they may charge more for this).
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/21/2007 9:05:44 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cesspool
I have the tow package on my 99. So I do have a seperate Tranny cooler, right? on front of the radiator?
From B&M's site
" 70274 - SuperCooler rated at 29,200 BTU 11"x11"x1-1/2" (Racing model doesn't include installation components and has female 1/2 NPT fittings). Can also be used for all fluid cooling needs."
Cess, there aint no way the oem aux. trans cooler can do what the above one does and at about $100 a pop (oem core at Mopar wholesale costs $217). I believe the numbers B&M are giving don't count adding the 1250 CFM 10" fan I was talking about adding.MY suggestion was to add the above cooler and fan and to absolutely not run any trans oil through the main radiator because it takes away from the main radiator's cooling capacity by means of the the heat generated from the trans. I think the oem cooler is only an addon and plumbed is series with the main radiator, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyhow if you want to ditch the clutch fan for e-fans and plan on towwing I think ditch the mark fan and build the setup with way more cooling capacity than even the clutch fan has.I'm an engineer by trade and like "bullet proof stuff" and I'm pretty sure the setup I researched and parted together should be more than enough to do the job. I'm going to set my D up just like this with the addition of an inline 55GPM electric water pump and a 31"X19"X1" 2 row tig welded side tubs 100% aluminum cross-flow radiator(stock is 2 row aluminum core plasic side tubs that will eventually blow out).The number one thing that you should be concerned with is cooling capacity and though the build I speak of aint easy, it has cooling capacity that far out measures that of those prefab twin fan setups and also requires only a fraction of the amp draw on the vehicle's electrical system witch is the second most important aspect of doing this, because you can have the uber fan from hell, but it won't work if the electrical system can't carry the load.
Anyway if you have the stock aux trans cooler, upgrading to the B&M one I mentioned even without doing anything else will add cooling capacity to the system in leaps and bounds from stock.
If you don't have the stock one this will be a serious improvement 10 times over.
Just pop the hood and follow the lines, I if it looks like you have 3 sepperate "radiators" you got one.
It will look like this: Biggest; the radiator; next size down condenser coil (for AC); smallest; aux trans cooler. If not the second one is the condenser coil.
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/21/2007 9:39:03 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zukgod1
Very good info!!
I have not yet done the E Fan conversion for the reasons mentioned above. It gets 100+ here often and pulling a 22' camp trailer in that heat would just overpower a E Fan set up such as the Mark 5 set up.
Reading lil red mopars posts confirms that in my mind. I am a HVAC/ tin banger guy, I dont think bending up a shroud out of metal would be to tough. It could be made as thin as possible to keep it close to the rad then we could cut the holes for the fans where we wanted and mount the fans over those holes....
I'll look into this in the future but I'll guess even a sheet metal shop could make something if givin the specs for less than $100.00. we would prob need to figure out the mounting tabs (they could be bent to be in the correct place but they may charge more for this).
Zuk, I'm a certified card hold'n sob from the I.U.O.E. Local 501. HAVCR/MVAC&MVAC like EPA 608 Universal card & EPA 609 card, ICC Clark County Journeyman Electrician card holder, tig, mig, stick, and oxy/acetlene welder, plumber, plant man ( boilers, chillers, cooling towers, heat exchangers loop and domestict hot water pumps, pneumatic controls........ ) currently the watertreatment man overseeing the entire plant and I'm not even finished with my apprenticeship.
Anyways enough about trade stuff as all that only nets $25hr, I make more fix'n ac's on the side.
If you get a 4'X7' sheet of I wanna say 20 or maybe 22 gauge aluminum, cut out all the tabs, bend it on the sheet break and weld it yourself you'll come out was cheapper and have exactly what you want, this is also assuming you have access to a plasma cutter and a good tig machine ( I do ).
Why aluminum? because it's lighter than stainless and plain steel will rust, suck part is aluminum's a bitch to cut and to weld, does a real good job of dissappearing if you're not careful.
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/30/2007 10:47:54 AM
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cesspool
Posts: 199
Joined: 5/30/2006
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I went ahead and changed my t-stat last night before I head to the falls this weekend. I didn't have time before I tried the efan. Now I wish I had, it was a 195. i don't know how the hell it got in there. I distinctly remember putting a 180 in it. well, now it has a 180, but how much would that of changed my results with the efan not cooling enough?
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/31/2007 9:14:50 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
Status: offline
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Cess, if you don't have the proper cooling capacity, the difference between a 180 and a 195 t-stat is meaningless. This is because the t-stat is designed to "open on rise". The 180 opens when the temp of the coolant in the engine block rises to or above 180 degF and closes when the temp drops below this 180degF set point.
So if you're overheating and the t-stat is opening at set point, it means the system's capacity can't handle the load. The motor is generating more heat than the cooling system is capable of removing.
Could mean a lot of things, for you I hope it's just a t-stat stuck closed.
However it could mean the fan isn't passing enough air through the radiator for sufficiant heat exchange, air pockets in the system, water pump issues, or blocked coil ( hose the fins on the radiator down to remove debris blocking airflow).
My personal opinion is the mark fan don't cut it for your application.
Read my previous posts and you can find the fans at summit and jegs and the trans cooler at preformance center.com and at summit.
The fan specs on the 12" that I spoke of differ by website so I called PermaCool directly and spoke to some one in engineering and design and they confirmed that the 12" fan draws 3000CFM @ 7.5amps 12VDC.
I'm also going for an all aluminum rad , 2 row cross flow, because the stock rad has plastic side tubs that are notorious for blowing out in the Vegas heat. DFW eat your heart out, at 3pm on 08/30/2007 the temps I faced in traffic on my commute home were above 117degF, this is what kills those stupid plastic radiators, every vehicle I've owned in Vegas blew the plastic rad in the summer, exaclty what blew was the seal between the side tub and the core.
Well Cess, if ya got the extra change lay'n around and lots of hours to wrench try my idea, if not, I'll post my results with pics in around 6 months to a year.
Build cost not counting misc such as custom hoses fittings etc major parts only. 2 12" efans $100EA, 1 10" efan $90,1 universal fit 2 row crossflow aluminum rad $180, 11"X11" racing trans cooler $100, 3 adjustable efan temp controls around $300 total. Comes to about $890 just in major parts so will most likely run a few bucks over a grand when all said and done, but what the hell you get what you pay for.
I'm gonna save and wait because I might buy a new Challenger as a happy b-day to me present for fun and keep the D for cart'n the kids around in.
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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