RE: Elec Fan Update
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/14/2007 9:10:37 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kensai
Yes, normally it should, but as this is a two speed, you can use the low speed providing the MarkVIII can pull at least over 2000 cfm's. That is why I stated earlier about most vehicles only uses a single speed fan, then the wiring would be much easier. I am sure that 2000 cfm's is enough to cool the A/C as the OEM electric fan only pulls around 2000 cfms.
Not to be a pest Kensai or to challenge your knowledge, but I've done a lot of "e-fan homework" especially in the required cfm department as I want to do this to my D too. In my seach for information I checked Perma-Cool's website (an e-fan manufacturer) and this is what they reccomend for cfm requirements for general applications.
"In choosing an electric fan for primary cooling, four cylinder engines generally require 1,600 cubic feet per minute (CFM) minimum. Six cylinder engines generally require 2,000 CFM minimum, small cubic inch eight cylinder engines require 3,000 CFM and large cubic inch eight cylinder engines require a minimum of 4,500 CFM. Recommendations are based on stock engines and regular driving conditions. CFM estimates are based on the electric fan mounted behind the radiator in a "pulling" configuration. Electric fans mounted in front of the radiator, in a "pushing" configuration, are only 80% as effective." quote from perma-cool.com.
Hope this helps everyone keep their Ds cool and kick'n. It's helped me re-think my approach to this job.
< Message edited by Lil Red Mopar -- 8/14/2007 9:12:54 PM >
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/14/2007 9:12:43 PM
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Kensai
Posts: 1652
Joined: 12/30/2003
From: United States
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You have to remember, the wiring I setup is made for two speed fan motor. To optimize the use of both speeds, I put the A/C on the low side and the temperature switch for the high side. The low speed speed setting should be enough to pull air across the A/C condenser, but may not be enough to cool the engine with the added heat load from the condenser. This is where the temperature switch will automatically kick in and flip the fan to high speed mode to keep the engine cool and at the same time still keep the A/C cool. All this and no manual intervention from the driver. Last thing a driver needs is more distraction when they should be concentrating what is up ahead on the roads!
I would assume the CFM rating of the low speed setting of the fan should at least be half of what the high speed is. If the MarkVIII high speed is rated up to 4400 CFM, then the low speed setting guessing should be at least 2200 CFM. 2000 CFM is more than enough air flow to cool the A/C condenser coil when the D is sitting still and idling.
Remember, 2000 CFM that I am referencing is only for the low speed setting to provide enough cooling for the A/C. 2000 CFM is not enough to keep a 360 engine cool. That is where the high speed settting to give up to 4400 CFM will take over automatically when the engine temperature reaches the set temperature set point and bypass the low speed setting. Once the engine cools down to a set point on the thermostat, the high speed will dis-engage and low speed will resume if A/C is still running. If A/C is not running, the fan will not be running at all. This is an advantage for cold starts. When you cold start your D and the A/C is not running, the fan will not engage and let your D warm up quicker. This is a big plus for those owners that live in very cold climates.
Here are some scenarios of how my wiring works:
Engine hot (engine thermostat set point IE: 180 or 195) - High speed
A/C running and engine running cold/warm - Low speed
A/C running and engine running hot (engine thermostat set point IE: 180 or 195) - high speed
Engine running cold and no A/C (IE: cold start or cold winter season) - Fan is OFF
Wiring diagram shows that under no circumstances that power is simultaneously supplied to both speeds to the fan. The relays are wired so that it supplies power to either high or low or no power to fan.
Again, the wiring diagram I created is design to 100 percent automate the use of the fan on both high and low speeds without any manual user intervention just as if it was a OEM setup.
< Message edited by Kensai -- 8/14/2007 9:39:18 PM >
_____________________________
Black 2000 Durango 5.9 R/T
Fastman 52mm ThrottleBody
Fastman custom built Tranny
Castrol Full Syntec
OEM K&N Air filter
Monroe Reflexes
BFG Comp T/A''s
Champion IR Truck Plugs
180 Stat
Hypertech III (87 oct)
Custom Made Ram Air Intake
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/14/2007 9:43:56 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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Ya Ken I think he should run it high speed only if it's enough to do the job, or run low speed on a temp control to kick on at 180 and cut out at 150 and run the high speed to kick on at say 190-200 and cut out at 180 at which point the low speed would cycle on and pull down to 150 and cycle off.
This could be achieved using two adjustable temp controls tied into an additional relay to insure voltage supply to only one speed at a time by wiring the speed selecting relay NC to low speed and NO to high speed and the coil to the hot on the high speed after the temp control relay so the speed selection relay will automatically cut power to the low speed when the high speed is being called for and will switch back at 180 and then completely of at 150. In theory this should work good for cold winters as well as hot summers and if you wire it to a constantly hot power supply it will continue to cool the vehicle after you shut it off, however I would reccomend battery rundown protection if wired to a constant hot source.
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/14/2007 9:50:59 PM
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Kensai
Posts: 1652
Joined: 12/30/2003
From: United States
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You got it. But I am trying to keep things as simple to wire up for Cess. Throwing in another thermostat or subbing to a two stage thermostat may be more than Cess can absorb! 
Hence why I prefer to fork out the extra extra money and buy a two speed fan controller that can simplify all this and make everything really easy to wire up. The only bad thing to the fan controller, this is a single point of failure and not cheap to replace. The home made setup, if one of the relays goes out, you can replace it cheap or swap it with a good relay to temporary get by until you get a replacement. (In diagram, you only worry about the thermostat relay as this is the high speed relay), if this goes out, you can swap out with the A/C relay to get by temporarily.
< Message edited by Kensai -- 8/14/2007 9:53:55 PM >
_____________________________
Black 2000 Durango 5.9 R/T
Fastman 52mm ThrottleBody
Fastman custom built Tranny
Castrol Full Syntec
OEM K&N Air filter
Monroe Reflexes
BFG Comp T/A''s
Champion IR Truck Plugs
180 Stat
Hypertech III (87 oct)
Custom Made Ram Air Intake
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/14/2007 10:45:45 PM
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Mean Green
Posts: 3188
Joined: 6/22/2006
From: Reno, NV
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Well since this has gotten hot I thought I'd let you guys know that my D has been running good with the e-fan, I still have to fab up a shroud for it and I will be set. The ac still brings the temp slightly above the 200 mark and I don't like that but it doesn't go past that and my ac is still nice and chilly. Once I get into school (diesel tech training) I will be able to work on the D in a shop and won't be frying my balls off at 100 degrees in the shade. I will be getting a lot of work done hopefully if they give us enough shop time. Good luck in all of your endeavors guys and if you go with a switch you may want to stick a post it on your steering wheel for the first few weeks to remind you to turn on the fan. It is like second nature for me no and I am done with messing with that end of it.
_____________________________
2000 Durango 5.9L SLT+ Flowmaster 40 "Custom" Ram Air 31" BFG AT T/A KO's Bilstein Shocks Hidden Hitch Sirius Satelite Radio E-fan conversion Smittybilt brushguard SSU's
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/14/2007 10:46:46 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
Status: offline
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Ya but if you get two temp controls like my setup in my last post, if one fails you can jump it out and use the other for high speed until you get a new temp probe for the bad one.
Simple, if the low speed craps out, adjust the cut in on the high speed to 180, disconnect the power to the bad controller, and jump out the speed selector relay.
Same thing if ya lose a relay, chuck the bad relay, run high speed off temp only and jump out the speed selection relay.In my cicuit there are three relays, two for temp and one for speed, as long as both temp probes don't die at the same time or two relays don't die at the same time, the circiut can be modified easily to run high only cut in at 180 and cut out at 150 in an emergency and will work until parts can be had for repair.
Worse comes to worse and you lose two relays at once or both temp probes, just wire it high speed "key on" till ya get home and put the clutch fan in until parts can be had. The probes are spendy, but 30 amp 12vdc 2 and 4 pole relays are cheap around $5-$11 at your neighborhood autoparts store.
DC electric is easy to grasp compared to 3-phase, but harder to control than single-phase ac.
We'll just have to learn o'l cess won't we. I hope his electrician buddy helps him so he has a completely reliable and effective control circuit.
I might go with twin 14" fans at 9.5 amps each at 1800 RMPs each at 2950 CFM max pull totalling 5900 CFM draw at 19 amps with both fans running.
Fan 1 cycles 180 on/ 150 off, fan 2 cycles on with ac or 195 on/ 180 off.
The hard part will be making a custom shroud for it because I'm pretty sure the the radiator core is 26" so I'm gonna have to mount the fans in a ^ shape pointing in the center towards the engine sticking out maybe an inch or inch and a half.
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/14/2007 11:01:45 PM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
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MG diesel school, sounds cool. As an engineer I work on everything in the hotel from toilets to boilers, kitchen equipment, HVAC stuff and everything in between, but I've never wrenched on vehicles for money, sounds more fun than what I'm doing!
Maybe I'll open a hot rod shop when I retire, I've always wanted to earn money wrench'n on cars.
Good luck! I hope you can have fun and make the bucks at the same time!
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/15/2007 10:41:21 AM
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Mean Green
Posts: 3188
Joined: 6/22/2006
From: Reno, NV
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Well the market around here will pay $70k to start with an associates, within 5-10 years I could be making upwards of $120k. All of that will be hard earned though. 
_____________________________
2000 Durango 5.9L SLT+ Flowmaster 40 "Custom" Ram Air 31" BFG AT T/A KO's Bilstein Shocks Hidden Hitch Sirius Satelite Radio E-fan conversion Smittybilt brushguard SSU's
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/15/2007 11:04:38 AM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
Status: offline
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Damn MG, CHA-CHING!
Operating engineers in my market only make 54k, without the Vegas heat creating lots of odd jobbing oportunities I'd be just scraping by.
Yes hard work it will be, but you can stand back and watch as your hard work rolls down the road, or keeps the lights on when the power goes out and say, " I did that."
< Message edited by Lil Red Mopar -- 8/15/2007 11:10:05 AM >
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/15/2007 10:19:50 PM
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Mean Green
Posts: 3188
Joined: 6/22/2006
From: Reno, NV
Status: offline
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Aw crap, my wife was talking to me about moving down there to Hell *ahem* I mean LV, so that would be the salary I would expect to make as a diesel tech (with a degree not a certificate)?
_____________________________
2000 Durango 5.9L SLT+ Flowmaster 40 "Custom" Ram Air 31" BFG AT T/A KO's Bilstein Shocks Hidden Hitch Sirius Satelite Radio E-fan conversion Smittybilt brushguard SSU's
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RE: Elec Fan Update - 8/16/2007 12:29:57 AM
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Lil Red Mopar
Posts: 73
Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Las Vegas, NV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mean Green
Aw crap, my wife was talking to me about moving down there to Hell *ahem* I mean LV, so that would be the salary I would expect to make as a diesel tech (with a degree not a certificate)?
I don't know what a diesel tech would make, different trade than me. I'm a stationary engineer and member of the International Union of Operating Engineers Local 501. Average "strip contract wage pkg" is about $25 hr and $5 hr in the pension fund and med. ins. is included with no premiums, you go to the doctor and pay the co-pay that's it, I got three kids and a wife on my coverage and no extra money taken from my check for their coverage. I got the hmo so scrips are 7, visits 25 secialist 50. The co-pays are a little high but when you retire you're still covered, so basically we pay extra on co-pays to cover the retirees.
House prices however still SUCK here big time. Nowadays the 30k stink holes in the gang neighborhood across the street from the cemetary downtown are going in the 200's-300's. Makes me wonder how anyone would buy there at all, and how the "crackheads" can afford remain there to insure it remains a stinkhole.
I'd wait on the market as I see many houses, even in my neighborhood that are empty and have the doors sealed with the eviction notice from the constable's office, my tract only has 68 homes in it and I counted 10 of 'em this way the last time I passed out the wife's avon brochures.
Stupid people got really bad arm loans and intrest only loans and were told "take it and refinance in a year or two" by the realitors and now houses in my neighborhood have dropped an average of 80k + in value and these people are stuck because they're upsidedown and the banks won't refi them, my house pre-con 509k now same model with 45k more upgrades than mine offered at 440k in an open house.
The foreclosures are stacking up out here, so wait and watch, and when the banks are stuck with an overwelming inventory they'll have to liquidate fast nomatter what the cost. Last Friday on channel 8 news they reported that Las Vegas was #7 on the top 10 worst markets/ over inflated markets.
The medain wage here is still only $9hr so the market can't bear the median price of 300k for long. Only 5 years ago you coulda got a 3ksqft home here in the low 200's now they run in the 500k-2.5mil depending on the neighborhood.
If ya do move down here we got a couple of NASCAR races and lot's of drag racing events at the speedway and strip, we still have run what ya brung on Fri&Sat nights too. Just don't run an 11 because they'll tell ya not to come back without a roll cage and five points.
I got an instructor at the union hall that is a jeep freak, his jeep looks like a rock crawler, they do trails of all diffuculty levels and this guy loves all things 4x4 if ya do come down here I'll hook ya up with him, he knows all the good trails far and near, mostly far though because around here most places are govt. off limits.
Don't mind my long-windedness too much as my inlaws begged me to move in with them about a year ago because the can't make their 3500mo mortgage payment and they drive me nuts
But what the hell my cut's only 600mo.
Well good luck MG and if ya do come out here I'll buy ya a cold one, and help you install a swamp cooler in your garage so ya won't have to sweat it wrench'n on the D at 108F, that was the temp of my garage this afternoon
< Message edited by Lil Red Mopar -- 8/16/2007 12:37:31 AM >
_____________________________
'01 Durango Slt
5.9L 2WD NO Tow PKG
AEM Brute Force cold air intake
Cherry Bomb Glass Pack
MSD 6A ignition/MSD Blaster 2 Coil/8.5mm MSD wires
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