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RE: Need help fast

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RE: Need help fast - 3/22/2007 10:06:48 AM   
kurts2

 

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Joined: 10/27/2006
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Ok here is the entire "Failure To Start Test" for a 97 Intrepid/ Concord/ LHS/ Vision.  Follow this first and see where it leads you.  Let me know.

FAILURE-TO-START TEST
See Figure 1

This no-start test checks the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor. Refer to the ignition coil tests before commencing with this test, much time may be saved if the problem lies within the coil.

The PCM supplies 8.0 volts to the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor through one circuit. If the 8.0 volt supply circuit shorts to ground, neither sensor will produce a signal (output voltage to the PCM).

When the ignition key is turned and left in the ON position, the PCM automatically energizes the Auto Shutdown (ASD) relay. However, the PCM de-energizes the relay within one second because it has not received a crankshaft position sensor signal indicating engine rotation.

During cranking, the ASD relay will not energize until the PCM receives a crankshaft signal. Secondly, the ASD relay remains energized only if the PCM senses a camshaft position sensor signal immediately after detecting the crankshaft position sensor signal.

Check battery voltage with a voltmeter. Make sure to always attach the positive voltmeter wire to the positive (+) terminal of the component being checked. Do the same with the negative - wire also. Voltage for the battery should be approximately 12.66 volts or higher to perform the failure-to-start test.

Unplug the harness connector from the coil pack.

Connect a test light (or voltmeter) to the B+ (battery voltage) terminal of the coil electrical connector and ground. The wire for the B+ terminal is dark green with a orange tracer. 

 
Fig. 1: Attach the 12 volt test light to the B+ (battery voltage) terminal of the coil electrical connector and ground

Ok, Here I tried to insert this nice picture of the test light with the probe in the pin (B+) and the other end of the light attached to a ground.  I can't get the picture in!!

Turn the ignition key to the ON position. The test light should flash on and then off. DO NOT turn the key to the OFF position; leave it in the ON position.

If the test light flashes momentarily, the PCM grounded the ASD relay. Proceed to Step 5.

If the test light did not flash, the ASD relay did not energize. The cause is either the relay itself or one of the relay circuits. Test the circuits for a ground or open circuit. If you have a DRB scan tool, this is where you would need it to check the circuits.  (We may be able to isolate the faulty circuit with an ohm meter and lots of work, or if this is the fault, you could pay a mechanic with the proper equipment to test these circuits.  We will cross that bridge when we come to it.)

Crank the engine. If the key was placed in the OFF position after Step 4, turn the ignition to the ON position before cranking the engine. Wait for the test light to flash once, then crank the engine.

If the test light momentarily flashes during cranking, the PCM is not receiving a camshaft position sensor signal. Test the camshaft position sensor circuits for a ground or open circuit. Since Chrysler does not give a procedure for testing the camshaft position sensor with a voltmeter, ohmmeter or test light, have the component tested at a reputable automotive service center familiar with Chrysler vehicles.

If the test light did not flash during cranking, unplug the camshaft position sensor connector. Turn the ignition key to the OFF position. Turn the key to the ON position, wait for the test light to momentarily flash once, then crank the engine. If the test light momentarily flashes, the camshaft position sensor is shorted and must be replaced with a new one. If the light did not flash, the cause of the no-start is in either the crankshaft position sensor/camshaft position sensor 8.0 volt supply circuit, or the crankshaft position sensor 5 volt output or ground circuits. Have the crankshaft position sensor checked, after checking the sensor circuits for a ground or open circuit.


(in reply to kurts2)
Post #: 16
RE: Need help fast - 3/22/2007 4:01:48 PM   
BigBlocksnHardRock

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 3/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kurts2

Ok here is the entire "Failure To Start Test" for a 97 Intrepid/ Concord/ LHS/ Vision.  Follow this first and see where it leads you.  Let me know.

FAILURE-TO-START TEST
See Figure 1

This no-start test checks the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor. Refer to the ignition coil tests before commencing with this test, much time may be saved if the problem lies within the coil.

The PCM supplies 8.0 volts to the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor through one circuit. If the 8.0 volt supply circuit shorts to ground, neither sensor will produce a signal (output voltage to the PCM).

When the ignition key is turned and left in the ON position, the PCM automatically energizes the Auto Shutdown (ASD) relay. However, the PCM de-energizes the relay within one second because it has not received a crankshaft position sensor signal indicating engine rotation.

During cranking, the ASD relay will not energize until the PCM receives a crankshaft signal. Secondly, the ASD relay remains energized only if the PCM senses a camshaft position sensor signal immediately after detecting the crankshaft position sensor signal.

Check battery voltage with a voltmeter. Make sure to always attach the positive voltmeter wire to the positive (+) terminal of the component being checked. Do the same with the negative - wire also. Voltage for the battery should be approximately 12.66 volts or higher to perform the failure-to-start test.

Unplug the harness connector from the coil pack.

Connect a test light (or voltmeter) to the B+ (battery voltage) terminal of the coil electrical connector and ground. The wire for the B+ terminal is dark green with a orange tracer. 


Fig. 1: Attach the 12 volt test light to the B+ (battery voltage) terminal of the coil electrical connector and ground

Ok, Here I tried to insert this nice picture of the test light with the probe in the pin (B+) and the other end of the light attached to a ground.  I can't get the picture in!!

Turn the ignition key to the ON position. The test light should flash on and then off. DO NOT turn the key to the OFF position; leave it in the ON position.

If the test light flashes momentarily, the PCM grounded the ASD relay. Proceed to Step 5.

If the test light did not flash, the ASD relay did not energize. The cause is either the relay itself or one of the relay circuits. Test the circuits for a ground or open circuit. If you have a DRB scan tool, this is where you would need it to check the circuits.  (We may be able to isolate the faulty circuit with an ohm meter and lots of work, or if this is the fault, you could pay a mechanic with the proper equipment to test these circuits.  We will cross that bridge when we come to it.)

Crank the engine. If the key was placed in the OFF position after Step 4, turn the ignition to the ON position before cranking the engine. Wait for the test light to flash once, then crank the engine.

If the test light momentarily flashes during cranking, the PCM is not receiving a camshaft position sensor signal. Test the camshaft position sensor circuits for a ground or open circuit. Since Chrysler does not give a procedure for testing the camshaft position sensor with a voltmeter, ohmmeter or test light, have the component tested at a reputable automotive service center familiar with Chrysler vehicles.

If the test light did not flash during cranking, unplug the camshaft position sensor connector. Turn the ignition key to the OFF position. Turn the key to the ON position, wait for the test light to momentarily flash once, then crank the engine. If the test light momentarily flashes, the camshaft position sensor is shorted and must be replaced with a new one. If the light did not flash, the cause of the no-start is in either the crankshaft position sensor/camshaft position sensor 8.0 volt supply circuit, or the crankshaft position sensor 5 volt output or ground circuits. Have the crankshaft position sensor checked, after checking the sensor circuits for a ground or open circuit.




thanks man.  I appreciate all that.

The only thing I havn't noticed yet when doing a test was to see if the battery power wire on teh coil pack connector blinks.  SO i'll try that.

Other than that man, we've done it, and its all good.  Tested teh resistance in the coil pack (and started being like randy johnson and throwing parts at it, put in a new coil pack just to see)  all good on the cam sensor and crank sensor (once again, tried a crank sensor just to see)

we have battery at the connector, everything on that list is fine.  We have no codes being shown with flash diagnostics.

(in reply to kurts2)
Post #: 17
RE: Need help fast - 3/28/2007 11:30:32 PM   
BigBlocksnHardRock

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 3/16/2007
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Well, I think its time to just go ahead and replace the PCM.  We don't have a short to ground and we've got power and signal in all the right spots.

(in reply to BigBlocksnHardRock)
Post #: 18
RE: Need help fast - 3/29/2007 10:30:55 AM   
kurts2

 

Posts: 591
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
Above you said new belt, has it run since the belt was changed?  Is it possible the belt is off a tooth or two?

(in reply to BigBlocksnHardRock)
Post #: 19
RE: Need help fast - 3/29/2007 11:50:25 AM   
BigBlocksnHardRock

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 3/16/2007
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well, we just did head gaskets, it hasn't run since the belt was put back on.

I turned the crank over by hand all the way around to TDC on #1 after the belt was on, and the timing marks on the sprockets were still in between the two dots on the head like they were suposed to be.  So I would say its probably not off.

< Message edited by BigBlocksnHardRock -- 3/29/2007 11:51:28 AM >

(in reply to kurts2)
Post #: 20
RE: Need help fast - 3/30/2007 11:20:29 AM   
kurts2

 

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Joined: 10/27/2006
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It sounds right.

I want to see if I understand, you said you did the test and it was all good.  During the test after the test light flashes momentarily,  (the PCM grounded the ASD relay) you then went on to crank the engine.  When you crank the engine, (after waiting for the test light to flash once, this must be done), what happened? 

1.  If the test light momentarily flashes during cranking, the PCM is not receiving a camshaft position sensor signal.

2.  If the test light did not flash during cranking, unplug the camshaft position sensor connector. Turn the ignition key to the OFF position. Turn the key to the ON position, wait for the test light to momentarily flash once, then crank the engine. If the test light momentarily flashes, the camshaft position sensor is shorted and must be replaced with a new one. If the light did not flash, the cause of the no-start is in either the crankshaft position sensor/camshaft position sensor 8.0 volt supply circuit, or the crankshaft position sensor 5 volt output or ground circuits.

3.  If it is constantly flashing, this is the fire signal to the coil pack and you should be getting a spark.  If this is the case, ensure the pins on the coil connector are not spread (or dirty) so there is no interferance with the signal.  If you still have no spark, then either the coil pack is bad or theres not enough power to the coil pack.

let me know 1, 2, or 3 and we can try to isolate it down.





Thumbnail Image


(Look, I finally got the picture in!!)

Attachment (2)

< Message edited by kurts2 -- 3/30/2007 11:21:45 AM >

(in reply to BigBlocksnHardRock)
Post #: 21
RE: Need help fast - 3/30/2007 11:23:22 AM   
kurts2

 

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Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
PS, the picture I added at the bottom of the post was for the failure to start test, I couldn't get it to upload last time.

(in reply to kurts2)
Post #: 22
RE: Need help fast - 3/30/2007 12:23:33 PM   
BigBlocksnHardRock

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 3/16/2007
Status: offline
I can tell you that its not 1 or 3 for certain.  The light doesn't flash at all, its on constantly.  I'm pretty sure that its the same for 2, I know we cranked w/o camshaft sensor for 15 seconds as to try and get the PCM to override not having a Cam sensor signal and go to default and start (something a chrysler tech that we know told us to do) and I think that the result on the test light was the same. Plus,we've got the 8 and 5 volts at each of the sensors like we should, and no codes.


< Message edited by BigBlocksnHardRock -- 3/30/2007 12:24:13 PM >

(in reply to kurts2)
Post #: 23
RE: Need help fast - 3/30/2007 10:06:24 PM   
kurts2

 

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Joined: 10/27/2006
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Ok then, prior to the spet 1 I mentioned above, the light never "flashed on once", it only stays on?  Also, are you tyring this procedure with the probe to ground (like the picture) or to voltage (as mentioned by ...?)?  Please tyr it the way posted if you haven't yet done so (to ground, not voltage) and let me know the outcome. 

If the light is always on with the correct configuration (never pulses), you will not have a spark, and you need to start breaking the circuit at diffrent points to detrmine where the short is (it sounds like a short to a voltage, not a ground). If we can isolate where, all you will need to do is run a new wire (even outside the harness) at that segment to correct the problem. 

(in reply to BigBlocksnHardRock)
Post #: 24
RE: Need help fast - 3/31/2007 12:26:02 AM   
BigBlocksnHardRock

 

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Joined: 3/16/2007
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no blinks at all, just on constantly, and we know thats why we dont' have spark, we're not getting pulse.  Thats why we thought we narrowed it down to ICM in the PCM.

You think its a short to power?  We've tested the wires with the light hooked up to power and ground, dude, we've tested these things a million times in every way you could imagine, I've forgotton some of the results becuase we've done so many.  We've tested, and retested numerous times.  We know we don't have short to ground, another guy never said anything about short to power, he was just looking for short to ground.  We've done all the procedures AllData gave us, we've done some other tricks chrysler techs have told us.  Everything is okay except we're not getting an ignitino pulse.

(in reply to kurts2)
Post #: 25
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