RE: ECU Limitations
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RE: ECU Limitations - 7/24/2006 10:41:24 AM
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mnboy
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Red, a chip in the computer is RAM (random access memory - short term) and the ROM (read only memory - long term) is different that it holds data without power, right? RAM is done when you shut off the computer, but ROM keeps it. ROM is what the new cameras use in their Compact Flash (example) cards. I can take that out of my camera and plug it into my computer and view (or listen) to my photos (or music). That's ROM if we are thinking on the same lines. Of course if you leave the computer on, RAM is remembering, but if you have a power failure, you're back to zero again.
Anyway, those CF cards will take several thousand "flashes" (formats). Sounds like Dodge needs to talk to Lexar, Sandisk, or Kingston. LOL
< Message edited by mnboy -- 7/24/2006 11:16:13 AM >
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RE: ECU Limitations - 7/24/2006 10:54:36 PM
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Midnight Blue
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The BIOS chips on the motherboards, the chips that store the initial firmware for the adapters so your CPU can start up enough to access the hard drive to load up your RAM all use ROM for storage. Unplug your hard drive and your monitor will give you a message about disk drive failure. All that stuff is stored in ROM. I work with tech support every week (Motorola, Adaptec, HP, Dell, etc) and they all recommend only flashing the BIOS/firmware/whatever to solve problems rather than just to have the latest version. After so many flashes, the memory cells lose their ability to retain data when power is removed. If it ain't broke . . .
Granted, the couple of cases that my friend knows about were rather extreme (almost obsessive) examples, but it does illustrate the long term effect of excessive flashing on the ROM. The 100 flashes was number used by various vendors a few years back as a practical limit that you could expect from flashROM technology. Electronic technology has been advancing almost exponentially over the past decade so that bar is probably much higher now but there is still a limit. Just something to be aware of. Kind of like reusing old fasteners. At some point wear and fatigue takes it's toll and you have a rod hanging outside your block.
With all that said, I'm waiting for my Flashpaq to arrive so I can try and outsmart HAL.
Redbeard
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RE: ECU Limitations - 7/26/2006 5:20:32 PM
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MangoInTX
Pat & Amandas Wedding Fund Contributor
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I'm not sure what the question is about the JET II. You can either stack it w/SC or don't stack and run either the Jet II or SC. If your wanting to stack (SC/JET II) you should go back to stock/install Jet II/Flash w/SC. Reverse to undo it for a steelership visit or if you just want to.
I’m pretty stupid as well when it comes to this ROM stuff. Is the ROM also called EPROM?
I believe the answer is yes, an update from SC or re-program will "flash" the ROM. Each time you select "Program Vehicle" that is a flash.
I hope I reach the magic self-destruct flashing number on my ROM while it’s under warranty.
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RE: ECU Limitations - 7/27/2006 12:55:55 AM
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Midnight Blue
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Let's see if I can answer as many questions as possible in one post.
Actually Mango, you have a pretty good handle on it.
The reprogrammers like Superchips actually change the data in the controller itself. When it writes the data to the controller, this is a "flash". Whether if its a flashpaq update, tuning tweak, or restoring the factory data for a trip to the dealer, it's a flash.
Mango is correct in that these are EPROMS (Electronically Programmable Read Only Memory) which means that you don't have to remove the chip and put it in a special "burner" to program it. In my early mainframe days, when you wanted to update a device, you actually removed the old chipset and installed a new one(s) from the factory with the changes burned in. That is no longer needed and the risk of damage to the equipment is greatly reduced. The drawback is the limited number of times that you could do this. Since you didn't do this too often, the risk of failure was minimal. By the time you did this 100 times, the equipment was ready to be replaced from old age anyway!
Under most normal conditions, there really shouldn't be an issue with updates/tweaks. Also, the 100 flash number was a guideline based on an average failure rate so some would do more and some would do less.
mnboy's reference to the memory card technology used in cameras and other personal data devices is a good observation. The concept of keeping data when power is removed is the same but the technologies are different. The controllers are expected to operate under more extreme environmental conditions (subzero to +150 degrees F for example) than your digital camera. I'm not sure about the long term retention of data in these "flash" memory chips (my ignorance) but the controllers in you car need to be able to keep it's data for 20 years or more. Usually you snap a pic and download it to you PC. A number of the early Bosch EFI units from the early 70's are still operational today and they have the original factory chips in them. When you need reliability, especially in safety related systems, go with the proven solution.
From what I can understand about the Jet II chip, it doesn't write to the controller but "bypasses" the settings to read the settings from it's own ROM. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here) This is what gives it a plug-and-play personality. Since no data is written, no flash happens. The drawback is that you have only one program and have to plug in another chip for a different set of settings. You also can't tweak the setting to suit your individual needs/desires.
The ideal solution, as I see it, would be a plug-in chip like the Jet II that you could update and reprogram. You could get a number of "blank" chips and set them up for different conditions - extreme burnouts, road course, drag strips, economy for long trips, 4 cyl only mode for when the kid uses the car . . . Just plug in the desired performance package and have a nice day. Come service time, pop out the chip before you hand over the keys.
I think I covered most of the comments. It looks like I opened a can of worms here but information sharing is good. That's why we're here. OK, my brain is fried.
Redbeard
"In my next life, I'm going to have more memory installed"
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RE: ECU Limitations - 7/27/2006 10:06:35 AM
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MangoInTX
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Thanks for the info, it sounds very realistic to me. I would have never thought about getting "flashed out" but that could very well happen.
I was like a kid in the candy shop; the SC provided so many options to play with. And just think, not counting updates, there are many more options to come.
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RE: ECU Limitations - 7/29/2006 10:20:37 AM
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MangoInTX
Pat & Amandas Wedding Fund Contributor
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The only thing I've seen that comes close to this is AutoTap, but it's purely informational and doesn't do any flashing.
Is the starscan a black box turn key system or is it an application <= like for windows, linx?
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