RE: Viper rumor...
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/14/2006 2:41:49 PM
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DevilsReject
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedRam225
Every Corvette lover should thank Dodge from Dawn 'till dusk for the Viper. In 1991 the Corvette’s base engine made a whopping 245 horsepower, no much more than the V-6 in my pickup makes; the top-of the line Corvette had what 345 horse? TOP OF TH E LINE!!???? Had there been no viper the Vette would be half the car it is today.
BTW I’m sure this has been hashed over and over, but notice how much the new ‘Vette looks like the Viper. The vette stopped making pop-up headlights, they look more like the Vipers, hood scoop like the viper, mouth opening like the viper, side vent like the viper. Which begs the question, why buy the Corvette when you can just buy the Car it was designed after?
Umm go look it up...but the current model Viper is imitating the Corvette now.....so who's imitating who? They have a lot of similarities, but the Corvette was already going that route before the Viper was built. And if you look at a 2nd gen Viper...you'll see a striking change to resembling the Corvette. Granted, some of the Corvette's design I'm sure came from the Viper as they modified it year in and year out. The Z06 Vette comes with a hood scoop, but its the top model in its class. All popular competing cars eventually steal ideas from one another. Hood scoops, specific lights, ride heights, even engine sizes.
Also, at the time that the Viper came out, there werent very many cars being made that really pushed even the 300hp mark BESIDES the Corvette. At least at that time in the USA due to all the issues with gasoline and efficiency from the late 70's early 80's. So to use that as an excuse or a reason is just preposterous. Also, the Viper had to use the V10 to get to that mark. The Corvette has kept the V8.
One last note, the very first car I think outside of American built cars to crack the 250hp range was the Stealth/3000GT I do believe. I could be wrong...but there werent very many cars being built at that time STOCK that came in that range.
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/14/2006 4:28:04 PM
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RedRam225
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DevilsReject
Umm go look it up...but the current model Viper is imitating the Corvette now.....so who's imitating who?
Not sure what styling cues the Viper has that copies the Corvette, so I'll bite...how is it copying the corvette?
The side flares behind the front fenders that the Corvette adopted after the Viper brought it out? Not pop up headlights, open "mouth" ...twin bubble roof look? I think almost all styling cues for the Vetter come from the Viper. The Viper did take major styling cues from other sources (Cobra) but clearly, NOT the Vette...
quote:
ORIGINAL: DevilsReject
Also, at the time that the Viper came out, there werent very many cars being made that really pushed even the 300hp mark BESIDES the Corvette. ....
I agree, and that is my point. There was nothing there to push the Corvette forward. There was noting like it, nothing close. The Viper so dominated it in the first Generation that Chevy had to do a major renovation to bring it back to where it was competitive to the viper; and to Chevy's credit, they've out-vipered the viper now.
I think It is really up to Chrysler to decide if they want to dominate this segment or not. Their car is somethign to behold, but it's not the class leader, and certainly not the class leader it once was...
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/14/2006 5:38:20 PM
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DevilsReject
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedRam225
quote:
ORIGINAL: DevilsReject
Umm go look it up...but the current model Viper is imitating the Corvette now.....so who's imitating who?
Not sure what styling cues the Viper has that copies the Corvette, so I'll bite...how is it copying the corvette?
The side flares behind the front fenders that the Corvette adopted after the Viper brought it out? Not pop up headlights, open "mouth" ...twin bubble roof look? I think almost all styling cues for the Vetter come from the Viper. The Viper did take major styling cues from other sources (Cobra) but clearly, NOT the Vette...
Now, as far as the 1st gen Viper goes, I'll give you that the Corvette saw what people liked, and made some changes to the then Z04 and then the Z05's. However, by the time Dodge brought out the 2nd Gen Viper, you could see it had copied some of the Corvette's lines....it smoothed out some, it developed a little bit more of a rear end, and it started to round out a little more. By the current model, the Viper has started to look identical to the Corvette in some respects. The current model and the previous model Corvette was also out before the last 2 changes on the Viper.....so do you say its a complete rip-off? No. It borrowed some ideas and it used them.
Here's an 02 C5 Corvette.....and an 02 Viper....this is where they still pretty much different to a point...and you can already see where the Corvette is going design wise to the current 06 model. The ground work is already there. The Viper was RE-Designed in 2003. Also, the 05 Corvette was the first Vette in like 2 decades to not use the flip style lights. Several other cars had already gone to the new lighting that the Viper used long before the Vette did. In fact, the flip style lighting was done away with on every car in GM's lineup.
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Then you have the 05 Corvette & 06 C6 Corvette....and the 05/06 Viper......now if you look at the 02 Corvette...and then look at the 06 Corvette...you can see a similar body style....but the Vipers totally redesigned from 02-06....
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< Message edited by DevilsReject -- 2/14/2006 5:39:29 PM >
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/14/2006 7:43:27 PM
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clean_sx
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one question, HP?
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/14/2006 7:50:14 PM
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ViperGTS
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There's no reason to compare the GTS model to the new Z06, neither look the same. It's definately the styling of the new Z06 Chevy, which stole cues from the SRT model in 2002.
quote:
So why continue wasting money on an engine that's being caught up to by a V8?
There's nothing wrong at all with a V10, it's an American icon of the Viper engine, but I agree with you Dodge does need to add some horsepower. Chevy's corvette is able to catch up for 3 reasons, drag, gear ratio and weight. It wouldn't be a match if engineers would do their job.
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Look at Lamborghini and Ferrari and Mercedes. They're using V12's.....and some of their sedan McClarens and AMG models will match, beat or come close to the Viper in speeds and quarter mile. Is that anything to brag about?
First off Mercedes makes an entirely different car then the Viper. It's meant more toward luxury and intricate electronics, things that don't show up in normal cars for years to come. The body and platform are meant to provide a person with the ultimate luxury experience. The Viper however was built for its raw performance, engine, platform etc. If Mercedes really wanted to destroy Ferrari's/Vipers with their V12's, they easily could.
-Matt-
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/14/2006 11:32:24 PM
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vipersforsale
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DevilsReject
Now, as far as the 1st gen Viper goes, I'll give you that the Corvette saw what people liked, and made some changes to the then Z04 and then the Z05's. However, by the time Dodge brought out the 2nd Gen Viper, you could see it had copied some of the Corvette's lines....it smoothed out some, it developed a little bit more of a rear end, and it started to round out a little more. By the current model, the Viper has started to look identical to the Corvette in some respects. The current model and the previous model Corvette was also out before the last 2 changes on the Viper.....so do you say its a complete rip-off? No. It borrowed some ideas and it used them.
Here's an 02 C5 Corvette.....and an 02 Viper....this is where they still pretty much different to a point...and you can already see where the Corvette is going design wise to the current 06 model. The ground work is already there. The Viper was RE-Designed in 2003. Also, the 05 Corvette was the first Vette in like 2 decades to not use the flip style lights. Several other cars had already gone to the new lighting that the Viper used long before the Vette did. In fact, the flip style lighting was done away with on every car in GM's lineup.
dude what are you smokin? I got to get me some of that... (I say this because you are thinking way too hard about all of this!)
To begin with the Gen 1 and 2 series of Vipers were designed after the Shelby Cobras, in fact Shelby himself was in on the original design phase. The daytona Cobra was copied by Dodge and that is where the GTS came from... those have a lot of similarities with of course a more modern look for the GTS. Chevy corvettes had nothing to do with anything there... Next the ass-end of the Vette is not what looks like the Viper now and thats not what was primarily in debate regarding the flow of whos design was copied by who. Its is the front and the '03 Viper(Gen 3) front was in development in late 2001 while the front of the Vette still looked like a Vette. The Z06 front end looks amazing like some kind of crossbreed between a Ferrari and a Viper. It is plain and obvious that the Chevy design team took cues from the Viper and incorporated them into the new Vette front end, not only for function but for asthetic purposes, probly to help them gain some more of the potential future Viper owners over to their side.
The thing that you seem to not get here is that the guys that buy Vipers really dont care about how the Vette might be a hair faster or a bit cheaper in stock form. They can and also do buy Ferrari's and Porsches and such, but they buy Vipers because it is a Viper and Dodge doesnt make 60,000 of them a year. Truth be told, if you drive by a crowd in a Vette a couple of people might take notice, but for the most part you simply blend in with traffic... But drive by in a Viper and people stare, now this was especially the case with the '92-'02 Gen 1 & 2's, maybe not so much in the later ones.
If everybody that can buy a Z06 at $70,000(the one that I have listed is up to almost $75,000 right now) or a Viper at $85,000 or a Ferrari at $130,000 and so on... was worried about having the fastest car out there for the price, then they would all be running around in super-modified SRT-4's, Evo's, WRX's and such wouldnt they. For that matter I know somebody that has a Dodge Omni GLHS that could easily hang with a Z06 and probly hand its ass to it when running around a track. And he has about $15,000 invested in it with the cost of the car included. In other words I could take that $20,000 your mentioning and build me a car that would be faster than what your saying that you would blow on adds to a car that is already $70,000. So what does that prove, nothing really.
< Message edited by vipersforsale -- 2/14/2006 11:33:17 PM >
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/15/2006 1:16:08 AM
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DevilsReject
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ViperGTS
First off Mercedes makes an entirely different car then the Viper. It's meant more toward luxury and intricate electronics, things that don't show up in normal cars for years to come. The body and platform are meant to provide a person with the ultimate luxury experience. The Viper however was built for its raw performance, engine, platform etc. If Mercedes really wanted to destroy Ferrari's/Vipers with their V12's, they easily could.
-Matt-
My point was these are SEDANS...not sportscars....and if you think for one minute that an AMG or McClaren isnt build for performance....you need to go stick your head in a socket.....those things are HAND BUILT....not to mention flat out nasty on a track....
Vipersforsale: My post really wasnt about saying the Viper copied the Vette and so forth, just to say that both cars have borrowed to some degree similar designs at some point in their production. That is not to say they are identical or even look a likes. You can not however deny that the current Z06 and Viper dont look strikingly similar. They do. Not so much in total appearance, but in how the lines run on the car, the side vents, the hood scoop, the aggressive rear ends...etc etc. That's really what I was going for. And not all of it was borrowed by the Corvette either.
As for the price issue, its merely to point out that a car that costs 20k more isnt offering you any more performance then that 70k car. It's offering a name, and that's really it. Now, some people like the fancy dancy Corvette, some people like the raw basic power of a Viper.....but outside of the name on the car....they both are similar in weight, speed, and power. Like Matt likes to whine about...the biggest difference is drag and gearing...which to me is a crock.
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/15/2006 8:33:40 AM
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highrevr/tflea
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wow...this is a pee in your pool match.
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/15/2006 9:01:29 AM
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ViperGTS
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quote:
My point was these are SEDANS...not sportscars....and if you think for one minute that an AMG or McClaren isnt build for performance....you need to go stick your head in a socket.....those things are HAND BUILT....not to mention flat out nasty on a track....
So what if they're hand built, so are Bently's and Roles Royce's. I guess from your theory that they are sport cars as well? Obviously with V12's/V16's they are going to put some type of match on some of the greatest sport cars. It's unavoidable.
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As for the price issue, its merely to point out that a car that costs 20k more isnt offering you any more performance then that 70k car. It's offering a name, and that's really it. Now, some people like the fancy dancy Corvette, some people like the raw basic power of a Viper.....but outside of the name on the car....they both are similar in weight, speed, and power.
I don't think anyone's trying to fight you on the 20 grand worth of upgrades to meet the Viper's price Reject, that's one of the better things about it. However, the Vette is just a Vette at the end of the day.
Btw, they both aren't similar in weight.
-Matt-
< Message edited by ViperGTS -- 2/15/2006 9:02:57 AM >
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/15/2006 9:54:33 AM
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DevilsReject
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ViperGTS
quote:
My point was these are SEDANS...not sportscars....and if you think for one minute that an AMG or McClaren isnt build for performance....you need to go stick your head in a socket.....those things are HAND BUILT....not to mention flat out nasty on a track....
So what if they're hand built, so are Bently's and Roles Royce's. I guess from your theory that they are sport cars as well? Obviously with V12's/V16's they are going to put some type of match on some of the greatest sport cars. It's unavoidable.
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As for the price issue, its merely to point out that a car that costs 20k more isnt offering you any more performance then that 70k car. It's offering a name, and that's really it. Now, some people like the fancy dancy Corvette, some people like the raw basic power of a Viper.....but outside of the name on the car....they both are similar in weight, speed, and power.
I don't think anyone's trying to fight you on the 20 grand worth of upgrades to meet the Viper's price Reject, that's one of the better things about it. However, the Vette is just a Vette at the end of the day.
Btw, they both aren't similar in weight.
-Matt-
AMG/McClaren are the PERFORMANCE section of Mercedes. They are the Dodge version of the Chrysler world I guess you could say. These cars are built like the Corvette is in that its more comfort AND performance. The thing I'm trying to make clear, is that there are other cars out there that give you the raw power and still give you the style. By the way, these cars arent all show like a Rolls or a Bentley. These are smash the pedal and let her rip cars.
Yes, the Vette is just a Vette at the end of the day, but once upon a time THAT wasnt the case. The Viper is still new, it hasnt even hit a 20 yr anniversary yet. In 50 years, IF the Viper makes it that long, I bet you that its a more normal produced car, as Dodge will have to at some point either make it or drop it.
According to the respected brand websites as of this morning....
2006 Chevrolet Z06 Coupe - Curb weight 3,132lbs
2006 Dodge SRT-10 Coupe - Curb weight 3,380 lbs
If that's not SIMILAR, then I dont what your smoking.... I didnt say they were exact or identical. I said SIMILAR. 250lbs is not that huge of a difference. Granted, when it comes to racing or drag racing, weight is an important factor. However, as far as curb weight is concerned, they are indeed similar. Plus, the added 1.3L of engine should MAKE UP FOR THAT!
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< Message edited by DevilsReject -- 2/15/2006 9:56:25 AM >
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/15/2006 12:05:20 PM
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ViperGTS
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quote:
AMG/McClaren are the PERFORMANCE section of Mercedes. These cars are built like the Corvette is in that its more comfort AND performance.
First off the Corvette can do that because of the lightened body.
BS. All AMG is basically a beast of an engine plopped down on the regular frame/body. Yes the engine is made for performance, but the body, platform, interior, ect AREN'T made strictly for that performance. You can't possibly throw McClaren in their either, who can afford a near 500k vehicle which is infact made for performance?? 
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2006 Dodge SRT-10 Coupe - Curb weight 3,380 lbs
Two hundred pounds makes a huge difference. On one of the newer Porsches they were able to cut out like 99 pounds and that made a remarkable difference compared to the model before.
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Plus, the added 1.3L of engine should MAKE UP FOR THAT!
Again, gearing. You can have a 100000hp motor with 3 revolutions of the tire per minute, you seem to be ignorant on the fact that the Viper has a gearing issue. And this comes from owners!!
-Matt-
< Message edited by ViperGTS -- 2/15/2006 12:07:39 PM >
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/15/2006 12:40:09 PM
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DevilsReject
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ViperGTS
All AMG is basically a beast of an engine plopped down on the regular frame/body. Yes the engine is made for performance, but the body, platform, interior, ect AREN'T made strictly for that performance. You can't possibly throw McClaren in their either, who can afford a near 500k vehicle which is infact made for performance??
Let me try this from another angle....look at the SRT-8 lineup...and look at the numbers and times they're getting out of those 4000-4100lbs beasts.....then look at the Viper.... That's what I was getting at. I should have just used the SRT-8 as a basis of my point instead of AMG. The thing of it is, is that the Viper shouldnt be in the comparison to a sedan in any kind of performance test. I would think we would both agree on this?
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2006 Dodge SRT-10 Coupe - Curb weight 3,380 lbs
Two hundred pounds makes a huge difference. On one of the newer Porsches they were able to cut out like 99 pounds and that made a remarkable difference compared to the model before.
If you read my post, you notice I said it makes a difference in performance. I was talking similar in weight. Nothing more. The two cars are so eerily similar in dimensions its crazy. Your talking 200lbs in weight, and mere inches in virtually every other category.
I know the Viper has a gearing issue.
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/16/2006 3:08:20 PM
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Midnight
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Wow, all I did was post some rumors about the Viper, lol... How did the Vette get mentioned, lol. Everyone always get so touchy when it comes to the Viper/Vette... fun fun...
I say, forget about the Vette... Why does the Vette need to be compared... Screw the Vette... We aren't here for the Vette, we are here for the Viper... Who cares what the Vette does...
Vipers are and always will be a rare, neck breaking, super car...
< Message edited by MidnightBlueNeon -- 2/16/2006 3:10:53 PM >
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RE: Viper rumor... - 2/16/2006 3:27:48 PM
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clean_sx
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quote:
MidnightBlueNeon:
I say, forget about the Vette... Why does the Vette need to be compared... Screw the Vette... We aren't here for the Vette, we are here for the Viper... Who cares what the Vette does...
Vipers are and always will be a rare, neck breaking, super car...
yup, i agree with ya. you know whats cool, the mayor of the next town over from mine has a 94 RT/10!
I say : Viper owns vette anyday!
< Message edited by clean_sx -- 2/16/2006 3:30:47 PM >
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