RE: Battery or Alternator
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 8:17:19 AM
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01dakota440
Posts: 49
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: williamsport pa
Status: offline
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well i didn't have to do this but i did anyway. i started all of the 1st gen durangos and 2nd gen dakotas here at the shop, then pulled the battery on each one. and then drove each one about ten miles. i drove slow and fast, stopped and started. and gave each one a wholeshot run on the way back to the shop. not a single one missed a beat, backfired, or stummbled. but since hydrashocker is a moderator, he has final say on everything. i think this will be my post for this topic. oh and his buddy indyd did say "The D won't run with a low battery worth a sh!t... simply try to get it to run without one at all."
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 9:53:20 AM
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hydrashocker
Posts: 1635
Joined: 6/12/2005
Status: offline
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No my friend. I am not trying to argue. My words aren't the last ones.
So what you are saying is that you removed the battery or connections and ran the trucks. They ran like grand champions with no feed back like everyone else has had?
This is a bold move, but thanks for your intake. So did the trucks bog down a little when you removed the battery? I haven't known any vehicle that dosen't. I find this hard to swallow.
Also did you check the voltage? This is a bold move because these trucks that you tested your ideas on aren't yours. They sound like they are someones elses or soon to be. Glad I didn't buy it.
Now there have been many, many instances where this has came up and all of the trucks have been fixed and all that have this same problem. Low or bad batterys and other problems.
Now there is something you forgot. What vehical motors did you test, years, and what are they equipted with?
_____________________________
1998 Durango, 5.9L Built Motor Bored 20 Over
P&P Heads, K&N Ram Air CAI
MSD Ignition, 52MM Fastman TB, Built T-Case
Custom Built Trans, Air Bags
Magna Flow 3" Cat Back Exhaust
Too Much To List!
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 12:03:47 PM
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01dakota440
Posts: 49
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: williamsport pa
Status: offline
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all 7 vehicals are owned by my shop, all are 97-2001 daks/durangos with magnum v8s except one has a v6. and since we rebuild alternators here at the shop insted of buy new or remaned. i have put new bearings and brushes in quite a few of them. and i have never seen a regulator in a single one. here at my shop we only work on 1st gen durangos 2nd gen dakotas and rams that have the 3rd gen 5.2/5.9 engines. when your voltage regulator dies, you have to replace the pcm. that all there is to it. i have seen some people wire in an external regulator. and i you have a bog problem you should look into the exciter.
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 12:12:14 PM
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jeff66
Posts: 16
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline
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hydrashocker, what "open" loop are you refering to? I'm looking in my Haynes and i'm not seeing any reference to an open loop.
In modern chrysler charging systems the field current (which i believe you are talking about) to the alternator is controlled by the PCM, this allows the alternator to produce power. this is also your voltage regulator. Modern charging systems do not overproduce. They produce the required amount of power to operate all the electrical systems on the vehicle. the more demand ie. turning lights on, low battery the more power produced. less demand, less power produced. Putting the voltage regulator in the alternator is 80's and 90's tech.
I do agree that disconnecting the battery when the engine is running is not wise. I had a situation about a year ago where i had run my battery dead because i left a 12v cooler plugged in overnite, after jump starting it i had problems for the next 2 weeks with the vehicle doing weird things like dash lights flashing, doors locking and unlocking without being switched. It ended up being the battery. While replacing the battery i did notice that the engine would die when i disconnected the battery. Long story short, i learned that a low battery can cause problems. The PCM is sensitive to battery voltage. After putting a fresh battery in, no more problems.
Here is a great article on DIAGNOSING COMPUTER-CONTROLLED CHARGING SYSTEMS.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200709/ai_n21033508
_____________________________
2002 Durango SLT 4x4 5.9L
2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
1996 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 2:00:38 PM
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01dakota440
Posts: 49
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: williamsport pa
Status: offline
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thanks jeff66, i will fully agree with you. we are both new to this site, but that doesn't mean were new to working on things. oh and i to have had the vehical stall when battery was pulled, but a quick rebuild of the alternator, and it would run without at battery. and agian i'm not telling people to run their cars without a battery. and the reason to not undo the battery while the key is on, is that you may cause arcing. which could cause faults in the system
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 4:17:57 PM
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jeff66
Posts: 16
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline
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agreed, after looking at the circuit i don't see anything that would cause the engine to stall if the battery was removed from the circuit. maybe it's time for me to check the belt and the alternator in my d.
_____________________________
2002 Durango SLT 4x4 5.9L
2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
1996 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 6:42:40 PM
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IndyDurango
Posts: 744
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
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Hey there noob1 and noob2... do us all a favor and stop giving out the wrong information. Take the time to learn your vehicle before you try to "help" others.
We are trying to tell you that... YOUR D WILL NOT RUN CORRECTLY AT LOW RPMs WITH LOW BATTERY VOLTAGE FROM A BAD BATTERY. This is independent from the alternator.
Verify it for yourself by learning how to use the SEARCH function here - http://www.dodgeforum.com/forumid_110/tt.htm
or here - http://www.durangoclub.com/forum/
or here - http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/index.php?
Folks, simply believe those with thousands of posts and tens of thousands of reads or those with 13 and 36 posts respectively.
Simply believe those that pay to support this site or the leaches that pop in with misinformation.
If that isn't enough for you... perhaps you can believe the "Durango Section Moderator" who usually knows a thing or three about ... eh... a... Durango!
Take your pick of the above as to who has a higher level of expertise in D related topics.
BTW, WTF are "chey mechanics". LOL
IndyD
< Message edited by IndyDurango -- 5/8/2008 6:51:59 PM >
_____________________________
- Truck of the Month: 07/07 Dakota-Durango.com;
12/06 DodgeForum.com; 1/06 DurangoClub.com
- Durangoer of the Year: 2006 DurangoClub.com
- Three Time TotM Nominee: DTW.com
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/8/2008 6:51:30 PM
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01dakota440
Posts: 49
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: williamsport pa
Status: offline
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i would love to be a cash contributor for this site, just point me to the link to pay. oh i did misspell chevy mechanic.
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/9/2008 2:02:27 PM
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jeff66
Posts: 16
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline
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hey indy, i'm not posting wrong info here. your buddy is the one that did that. i'm pretty much in agreement with every thing that was said except what hydra said about the voltage regulator. i do research before i post, if i do post something wrong i will correct myself and admit my mistake. i don't need to call anybody names. I find it imature.
"We are trying to tell you that... YOUR D WILL NOT RUN CORRECTLY AT LOW RPMs WITH LOW BATTERY VOLTAGE FROM A BAD BATTERY. This is independent from the alternator."
once the engine is running all power for all systems is supplied by the alternator, the battery is nothing but a load on the system at this point, it is not needed. but if it is bad (low) it's going to draw more from the system than normal causing voltage fluctuations and possibly spikes. if alternator output is sufficent the engine is going to run. my d ran fine with a low battery, i had absolutly no problems with engine performance. no codes. the only problem i had was flashing lights and door locks. i suggest you go get a book on ac/dc electrical principal and read it before you become an electrical expert.
I came to this web site because it was advertized to be free, i could care less if you contribute cash to this site, it dosen't make what you say more true. it doesn't make you more qualified to give advice. The only thing it tells me is that you spend a lot of time in front of your computer. Other than being a durango owner what qualifies you to decide who's advice is good and who's is bad? Qualify yourself Indy.
_____________________________
2002 Durango SLT 4x4 5.9L
2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
1996 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/9/2008 4:28:22 PM
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01dakota440
Posts: 49
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: williamsport pa
Status: offline
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lol thanks jeff, oh and what is the 66 in your site name for. i just sold a 66 dodge coronet 440.
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/9/2008 4:40:41 PM
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jeff66
Posts: 16
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline
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girlfriend was born in 66
_____________________________
2002 Durango SLT 4x4 5.9L
2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
1996 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/9/2008 7:15:43 PM
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IndyDurango
Posts: 744
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeff66
once the engine is running all power for all systems is supplied by the alternator, the battery is nothing but a load on the system at this point, it is not needed
if alternator output is sufficent the engine is going to run. my d ran fine with a low battery
i suggest you go get a book on ac/dc electrical principal and read it before you become an electrical expert.
I came to this web site because it was advertized to be free, i could care less if you contribute cash to this site, it dosen't make what you say more true. it doesn't make you more qualified to give advice. The only thing it tells me is that you spend a lot of time in front of your computer. Other than being a durango owner what qualifies you to decide who's advice is good and who's is bad? Qualify yourself Indy.
Jeff, I hate to tell you that EACH AND EVERY ONE of your above statements are incorrect. You do not have to believe me or anyone else. Just stop asking for 'free' help then from 'free' sites you don't choose to support because I assure you they are not free to run, manage or maintain. You statements there are hypocritically shallow.
Actually, I done with this topic. Simply stated, for the 10th time... regardless of being an electrical expert, regardless of defying common sense, regardless of folks like me spending our time trying to help folks like YOU who ask for help and then refuse to accept the answers provided when they don't fit your preconceived notions of right and wrong (makes one wonder why you asked in the first place if you were not going to listen) and regardless of the actual reasons why we are right, IT IS CORRECT WHEN WE SAY THAT... your D, my D, anyone's D will not run properly at low idle with a perfect frackin' brand new alternator and a bad battery.
If you can't see any of that... then you can't see the frustration in HShocker's and my's posts when dealing with issues like this stupid one then you AND I will never learn to get past things like this.
IndyDurango <--- has probably forgotten more Durango lore that most dozen Durango owners all put together collectively know. AND PROUD OF IT.
< Message edited by IndyDurango -- 5/9/2008 7:31:59 PM >
_____________________________
- Truck of the Month: 07/07 Dakota-Durango.com;
12/06 DodgeForum.com; 1/06 DurangoClub.com
- Durangoer of the Year: 2006 DurangoClub.com
- Three Time TotM Nominee: DTW.com
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RE: Battery or Alternator - 5/9/2008 8:50:45 PM
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hydrashocker
Posts: 1635
Joined: 6/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
jeff66
I suggest you go get a book on ac/dc electrical principal and read it before you become an electrical expert.
Dude now you are a electrical expert????? You don't even know what a "Open Loop" is......LOL
Now It's my turn....
The alternator is on a open loop. Open your hood and look! Where does the main power go first? Second where does it go. Come on look into the schematics. No the "exciter" is not the problem nor is the magnetic field, nor the stator, nor slip rings or bushings, nor rectification.
So what controls the output on a alternator???????????.....How about a rectifier bridge and the voltage regulator.....But sounds like you guys know all about Y and L Contacts, Diodes, isolating Diodes, and Stators.
Now I didn't want to get into the wiring contacts loops and alternating coils-contacts. But I guess we can go there.
Yes the main voltage regulator THAT CONTROLS the L contact on the alternator is in the PCM. But what you guys don't seem to get is the Stator Coils controls voltage outputs needed by way of the Voltage Regulator. Many of us deem this as the Regulator. So sorry for the miss print. Most of everyone here is not an expert in electronic engineering. From the sounds of how this thread is going, you guys aren't one either.
99% of all the problems concluding the "alternator" is fixed by replacing the worn out parts. The parts include the battery, wiring, or alternator. These parts are cheap and can be taken back if not the problem. Now if you compare installing a new PCM (which is not returnable) and needs to be flashed by the dealer which is about an $750 repair versus a $60 repair that like I said is "returnable" and is most likely 99% of the problem unethical then you have issues!
The reason this forum is here is to help people out. This includes an alternative to paying for things that the consumer doesn't need. The out come to this is saving the average consumer some needed cash. Some of us here spend a lot of time pouring over many issues. Not all the time we are right, but we sure give it our all. Remember that we can only give information out under what is told to us.
Some of us have been around here for many moons and have given capital, know how, and our precious time into helping the average person like you. Sometimes even taking in criticism. No we are not perfect. But everyone needs to lesson.
This thread is going no ware so I am closing it out! So yes I get the final word.
Now there is absolutely no TSB's that say to take the battery cable off while running any vehicle so DON'T DO IT!
Get it tested only!
_____________________________
1998 Durango, 5.9L Built Motor Bored 20 Over
P&P Heads, K&N Ram Air CAI
MSD Ignition, 52MM Fastman TB, Built T-Case
Custom Built Trans, Air Bags
Magna Flow 3" Cat Back Exhaust
Too Much To List!
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