RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/4/2007 12:08:53 PM
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BadStratRT
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i think that one of the real truths here about not having AWD, is that portions of this car were built by GEMA, and if they DID offer the srt4 as an AWD package, they are competing too much with the evo, and im sure that mitsubishi didnt like the sound of that.
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/4/2007 12:51:37 PM
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2coff
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This is a low volumn car (unlike the Avanger), to get an AWD system for 3G's they would have to sell houndreds of thousands of these to just cover the development costs. We all know this car will not sell that many. And I'm baffled everyone wants AWD, to me the best thing they could have done is gone RWD that would have keep cost down and they are using one on the Demond so theres 2 cars they could use the RWD system on.
< Message edited by 2coff -- 12/4/2007 12:53:57 PM >
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/4/2007 4:36:26 PM
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97 3.5 Intrepid
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Where to begin? Okay 2coff, let me explain to you why the lower cost approach does not work and has not worked in this category. For years now, Chrysler, Ford, and GM have all offered less expensive offerings in comparison to the Japanese manufactures and the reason why they were less expensive is they didn't offer an equal vehicle. In some cases (GM) what they cutt out was interior quality. In other cases they cutt out performance (Ford). In yet other cases, they cutt out competitive options (Chrysler). This is why they keep losing sales, people want these things and they are willing to pay the extra money for them. Now after being perceived as being inferior for 30 years, when they have caught up or exceeded the competition they are struggling to catch on because of 1 and a half generations of people observing the Big Three offering models that were not competitive. If they want to regain the market, they have to offer an equal or better car while offering a competitive price and demostrate in each of their models that they are superior.
The RWD idea for the SRT-4 is not an answer because RWD is still inferior to the AWD models they would like to compete against. AWD provides more performance potential while being able to maintain control. Out of all the SRT-8s, the Grand Cherokee has the lowest 0-60 numbers partly because of the AWD systems superior traction which is not offered in the LX SRTs. To help with the production issue with making an SRT-4 AWD they should start to offer the SRT-4 engine on more models: the Demon concept, a true replacement for the Neon, an Avenger and Sebring SRT, and the Caliber version of course. The wider spread of such a powertrain would help with the economies of scale. The simple fact is the Caliber shares the same platform as the Avenger and could use a similar system in theory. Also the production difference between the Caliber and Avenger is really not that different as the Caliber is about a 85K a year seller (besides the fact that they were able to offer the AWD system on the R/T model of the Caliber already).
Patrick: Yes, I definitely think that Mitsubishi had a hand in the reason why the Caliber was not offered in AWD. The reason why I'm so against rebadging and using other company's technology instead of updating and building your own is you will never be allowed to offer the best product possible as it creates a conflict of interest. Take the Stratus/Sebring coupes in comparison to the Eclipse for example, I remember the Eclipse having a slightly higher output version of the 3.0L that was never offered in the Stratus/Sebring coupes. Mitsubishi had to keep their best interests in mind as they would not make as much profit potentially off of the clones as they would on their own model, so naturally they wanted to save their best technology for themselves. It was also true in the case of the Eclipse, Talon, and Laser. The Eclipse was the only version that offered a convertible. In the case of the 3000GT/Stealth, the 3000GT was the only one to get all-wheel-steering. Everytime you look, Mitsubishi gets the best model as they are entitled to it since it was afterall their design. The reverse was also true with the Dakota/Raider. The Dakota was the only one allowed to have the manual with the 4.7L and the only one allowed to have the H.O. 4.7L, now it is the only one with the 4.7L. Joint ventures only benefit the one who designed the car.
DSM models weren't always the fastest, but they were the most consistent in production and more affordable. The Daytona R/T in some trials was found to be faster than the Talon and Laser, but it was only produced for two years in much lower production, whereas the Eclipse clones ran from 90-94 for the Laser and 90-98 for the Talon. The Stealth was faster than the Daytona R/T by a considerable amount and ran from 91-96, but the Viper was faster (and considerably more expensive).
Also remember that performance as a whole began to disappeared after Eaton was put incharge. The Avenger/Sebring were a step down or two in performance compared to the Daytona and LeBaron. The Stratus/Cirrus/Breeze, never had the competitive engine offerings that the more plan looking Spirit/LeBaron/Acclaim had. The only thing that was an improvement was the LH cars but that was because Chrysler did not have any forced air inducted V6s in any of "their" cars and the 3.5L was a huge step up from the best V6 offering they had to offer before this (the 3.8L OHV). The Neon in the first generation didn't get to enjoy the V6 offering nor the turbo engines that the Shadow and Sundance got to enjoy. So remember to keep the entire picture in mind.
The only good thing that came out of the merger was the return to performance which the short lived Neon SRT-4 was quite fast, but desperately needed AWD to compete against the Evo (as well as some more power).
But back to the Caliber SRT-4, I agree it will not fly off the dealer lots in sales. The closest competitor would be the MAZDASPEED 3 and you don't see those everywhere which says to me that there are no guarantees. I've never been crazy about the whole Caliber idea anyways.
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/4/2007 7:31:13 PM
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BadStratRT
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I hate to argue, but Id have to see a Daytona RT, in stock form, that would stay within a ballpark of my laser with just exhaust...the turbo daytona had amazing potential to be made fast, as did many of the turbo dodge models, but the V6 daytonas were pigs compared to the turbo models. many of them which ive seen for sale were automatics, which would make them slower yet...the daytona died with the RT models because they didnt have the performance or the aftermarket of the turbo models.
my awd laser, with exhaust, a minor boost leak, and 120,000+ miles ran a 9.2X 8th mile...amanda truck ran a 9.4 8th mile, which was a 14.8-14.9 quarter mile...ive never seen a daytona RT run better than high 14s...
AWD is far superior to any other drivetrain configuration, unless youre just worried about horsepower figures...for drag racing or road racing, the benefit of 4 drive wheels shadows the extra drivetrain loss of the AWD, unless you have a powerful enough car to lift the front wheels, such as brent raus 6 second 200+ mph eclipse, which is RWD. however, look at shepard racing's 1g talon...high 7s, street legal, with street tires? he is faster than most of the FWD outlaw cars, running full slicks, because he can rip it out of the hole. FWD just doesnt make sense for racing, as the weight transfer is always working AGAINST you...and the drive wheels are being overworked when they are also the steering wheels...and anyone who "doesnt understand the fuss about AWD" doesnt have any experience with AWD...thus isnt qualified to hand out information about it.
the other night, i was coming back from hockey late at night with the laser...crisp, cool night..very dry. i was on a long, sweeping right hand turn, when a mustang came flying along side me...as we would both crack into it, he would pull ahead of me a bit, until he would slide a bit, at which point i would pass him...there was nothing that he could do to get away from me, even though my car has some 60 less bhp, if he was stock..if i was to do the same thing in the stratus, going around this turn under power would cause the wheels to spin, but the laser can take the same turns, under power, 15-20mph faster, and i can accelerate out of the turn much sooner. through the same 180 degree "roundabout", i can come out of it with the laser, some 30mph faster than the stratus..the laser is lighter, and a manual trans, but it has less "stated" power...
from a dig, i can basically side step the clutch at any rpm, and the laser will jump off the line, without a hint of wheelspin...even the stratus, which turned in an 8th mile time a second and a half slower, will spin the tires on a 2500rpm launch, and the same goes for amandas truck, which ran slightly slower times than the laser.
thats why the evo and skyline dominate the racing classes in which they compete, and thats why a huge amount of the quicker street-tire cars at import events are DSMs or Evos.
< Message edited by BadStratRT -- 12/4/2007 7:35:49 PM >
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/5/2007 3:41:51 AM
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dragon8master
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BadStratRT:
I wasn't bagging on Mitsubishi. Actually the only manufacturers I really do bag on are Ford, GM, and Kia. Ford, to me is an onrunning joke. GM, worse than a Jeep as far as maintenance, and you've heard people say how a Jeep will nickel and dime you to death. My dad is a Chevy truck guy, but he's always fixing some stupid little thing, moslty taillight assemblies and door/tailgate latches. Kia, well, I think is just about the cheapest made pieces of junk on the planet.
I actually have respect for cars such as the Evo, GT-R/Skyline, Supra, etc... They are real performers in stock form, with almost unlimited potential in the aftermarket. And that's what people like us are all about, isn't it?
< Message edited by dragon8master -- 12/6/2007 4:33:59 AM >
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/5/2007 5:42:33 AM
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BadStratRT
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im interested in seeing how this USDM GTR does for itself....as the skyline has been making a name for itself for the last 50 years...but it seems that nissan doesnt notice that what people want is THE SKYLINE...not really another AWD performance car...especially one that costs 70g...
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/5/2007 6:31:23 AM
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thestealth
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If the SRT model was offered with AWD, it might actually be a consideration for me when the time comes to replace my DD...
quote:
ORIGINAL: 97 3.5 Intrepid
In the case of the 3000GT/Stealth, the 3000GT was the only one to get all-wheel-steering.
Not true, the only option the 3kgt had that the Stealth did not was active aero. All TT Stealths had AWS except the '96 (where they made a whole 57 of them.)
Just clearing up some misinformation...carry on.
< Message edited by thestealth -- 12/6/2007 5:23:20 AM >
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/6/2007 12:07:16 AM
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97 3.5 Intrepid
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BadStratRT
I hate to argue, but Id have to see a Daytona RT, in stock form, that would stay within a ballpark of my laser with just exhaust...the turbo daytona had amazing potential to be made fast, as did many of the turbo dodge models, but the V6 daytonas were pigs compared to the turbo models. many of them which ive seen for sale were automatics, which would make them slower yet...the daytona died with the RT models because they didnt have the performance or the aftermarket of the turbo models.
my awd laser, with exhaust, a minor boost leak, and 120,000+ miles ran a 9.2X 8th mile...amanda truck ran a 9.4 8th mile, which was a 14.8-14.9 quarter mile...ive never seen a daytona RT run better than high 14s...
I can't testify about aftermarket changes as I know very little about that, but stock using the ratings I have read, that Daytona R/T was supposed to be faster stock vs. stock. The 0-60 and 1/4 mile time for a 1993 Daytona R/T was rated at 6.3 secs and 14.8 secs. I believe I read a faster spec in an old MT or C&D somewhere I think, but that was a long time ago and I don't think I have it anymore. Since they have limited info on the Laser, we'll compare it to the more common and more popular Eclipse. The 1993 Eclipse GSX (which had AWD) was rated at 6.8 secs and 15.2.
http://www.carspecsdirectory.com/Dodge.htm
http://www.carspecsdirectory.com/Mitsubishi_Morgan_Morris.htm
The fastest I have ever read any stock turbo AWD Eclipse doing is 6.4 sec and 14.9 sec and that was a 2nd gen (1995). Now which one is better for aftermarket, there is no comparison. The AWD has much greater capability and the 2.0L turbo has been made for an extremely long time in lots of cars. The 2.2L turbo III was a limited production used in two cars (Spirit R/T and Daytona R/T) and combined that lasted about three short years. The aftermarket universe for the 2.0L is huge especially considering how the 2.0L turbo has been used in extremely more powerful models like the Evo.
I wasn't refering to the 3.0L offering in the Daytona or the Spirit and its clones being the competitive one, I was refering to the turbo offerings. The only one I claimed that about was in the Shadow. Although it wasn't super fast, it was competitive in that model as was the turbo offering.
quote:
ORIGINAL: thestealth
Not true, the only option the 3kgt had that the Stealth did not was active aero. All TT Stealths had AWD except the '96 (where they made a whole 57 of them.)
Just clearing up some misinformation...carry on.
That's odd, I was always told they didn't offer the four-wheel steering. I knew they had the AWD but not the four-wheel steering. I guess you learn something new every day. Thanks for the correction. Still the point stands that the 3000GT had an option the Stealth didn't have.
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/6/2007 4:30:11 AM
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dragon8master
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BadStratRT
im interested in seeing how this USDM GTR does for itself....as the skyline has been making a name for itself for the last 50 years...but it seems that nissan doesnt notice that what people want is THE SKYLINE...not really another AWD performance car...especially one that costs 70g...
um, i think our new version is quite a deal, based on the fact that i read somewhere that to import a new, late '90s model skyline and make it street legal was somewhere in the neighborhood of $90K. and am i mistaken in that i thought all the most modern generations of skyline were AWD? except of course for the Infinity G35 that is the Skyline in Japan today.
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/6/2007 5:21:01 AM
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DevilsReject
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dragon8master
and am i mistaken in that i thought all the most modern generations of skyline were AWD? except of course for the Infinity G35 that is the Skyline in Japan today.
All of the modern era Skylines have been AWD, including the current Skyline. The V35 Skyline was AWD, as is the V36 Skyline, both of which are sedans. The current Skyline coupes are rebadged 350Z's, which is only RWD.
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/6/2007 4:53:17 PM
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grungerockjeeper
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Its ALL a moot point, since if Dodge wants to be a real contender in the sport compact market they'll do a 2+2 coupe version of the demon and do it in rwd. I cant really see the evo and sti as dominant. As long as all they offer is a 4dr sedan bopdystyle they'll never really take off like the eclipse did. Looks do matter, theres no good reason for a car thats fast not to have style also.
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/6/2007 8:00:30 PM
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BadStratRT
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well, not all skylines were AWD, but the last four or so generations have offered an AWD model. most USM skyline enthusiasts are only really familiar with the GTR coupes, which were AWD, but there were also loads of low-performance RWD models made...ive met plenty of people who lived overseas and owning a skyline wasnt anything special.
also, the last installment of the skyline, which we know as the infiniti G35 coupe and sedan, are also offered overseas as the skyline...however, they are nothing compared to the BNR34, which is the model that most people are used to relating to "a skyline".
i did a year by year review of the skyline a while back, it has more racing success than most cars in motoring history...but most people dont know that.
id be AMAZED to see chrysler release a 2+2 coupe based on the demon...especially with the launch of the challenger...i dont see it happening at all, unless its some derivation of th challenger, such as "the cuda"...
< Message edited by BadStratRT -- 12/6/2007 8:04:19 PM >
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RE: Eric Heuschele from SRT answers why SRT-4 is FWD - 12/6/2007 9:57:58 PM
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DevilsReject
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BadStratRT
well, not all skylines were AWD, but the last four or so generations have offered an AWD model. most USM skyline enthusiasts are only really familiar with the GTR coupes, which were AWD, but there were also loads of low-performance RWD models made...ive met plenty of people who lived overseas and owning a skyline wasnt anything special.
also, the last installment of the skyline, which we know as the infiniti G35 coupe and sedan, are also offered overseas as the skyline...however, they are nothing compared to the BNR34, which is the model that most people are used to relating to "a skyline".
i did a year by year review of the skyline a while back, it has more racing success than most cars in motoring history...but most people dont know that.
id be AMAZED to see chrysler release a 2+2 coupe based on the demon...especially with the launch of the challenger...i dont see it happening at all, unless its some derivation of th challenger, such as "the cuda"...
Yeah, there were several years of RWD Skylines, but the car itself is pretty well known for the R32-R34 lineups........and the Skyline is indeed a beast.....it practically never loses in most of the race classes its in.....and they have Skylines runnin 9's...
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